Interview with Rev Dr Frank Hanson
Sunday 18 May 2025

Lynne Dovey: 

In many ways our New Testament readings today speak for themselves. Both are stories about change and making new. In Acts the key line for me is in Verse 12: “The Spirit told me to go with them and not to make a distinction between them and us”. It is a post-Easter story about breaking down barriers and leaving all kinds of discriminatory beliefs and behaviours behind to make a new beginning by reaching out to the Gentiles – and having the faith to do that.

Similarly in Revelation 21 we see a strong case for ‘new beginnings’. “There is a vision of “a new heaven and a new earth” and then (apparently) God asserts “I am making everything new”.  Both these readings end with a reference to life and what supports life – repentance in one case and ‘the spring of the water of life’ in the other. These readings suggest to me that change and renewal are central to life itself, to our humanity. But how does this play out in our times? Weare to hear today from someone who has seen a great deal of change and renewal over his career which might give us some insights into that question.

A month ago, when Rev Leanne Munro led the service, she paid tribute to her former lecturer at Trinity College in Auckland, Frank Hanson. Rev Dr Frank Hanson to be precise. Frank has been a member of this congregation for 15 years. So, Frank, thank you for agreeing to share your thoughts and reflections with us.

You’ve had a varied and demanding career in the Methodist Church. You served as parish minister in three different parishes over a period of 18 years. And then you had two key national positions over a period of 21 years.

First, you were Director of the Methodist Education Division here in Wellington and then you were Principal of Trinity Methodist Theological College in Auckland. And as well as that, you were President of the Methodist Church in 1984 and 1985 and held a number of other national positions on committees, which took you far and wide.

So, let’s think about when you started in parish ministry in 1960. How has the church changed over these 65 years?

Rev Dr Frank Hanson:

Well, thank you, Lynne. I started my association with the church when I was five, in Sunday School, and my adult involvement with the church from about 18. So that’s nearly 75 years ago. I’ve got to say that my reflections today are very much personal.

As I remember back, there are just so many differences that have taken place in the church. One would be the ratio of children to adults. In my early days, children would have been as numerous as adults.

There’s also the ethnic mix of congregations and national committees.. Not so much in this church [St Andrew’s on The Terrace], but in many churches the ethnic mix has changed tremendously. So now, within the Methodist Church (and possibly the Presbyterian), the largest congregations comprise mainly Tongan and Samoan people..

A very important shift has been through women in leadership. Back in 1960, the women were leading in the kitchen. But that’s changed enormously, both at the local level and within the national churches. Today, there are women leaders at the national level in both the Presbyterian and Methodist churches. And in the churches at all levels. (eg. Leanne as District Moderator)

And there are lots of differences in worship. Back then, the Minister did virtually everything except sing in the choir or play the organ. Today, that’s not at all true. Worship leadership is shared by many. Just think of the number who lead in our Sunday worship.

Now, the seasons of the Ecclesiastical year are widely observed in Protestant Churches as well as Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox. As also is the 3-year Ecumenical Lectionary.

So too has preaching  changed – at least in my experience.  Preaching  then would probably have been  based on a verse in the Bible, and the sermon could well have been an explanation of the text in three points!  Not today.  We would now concentrate on a Biblical incident or theme, or a message from the liturgical season. And whereas in those days, the preacher would go into the Pulpit,  because you were preaching the “authoritative Word of God”. Now you have a reflection or a meditation, so you could talk about the passage/theme etc.and you would use the Lectern.

The use of Church buildings has also changed. Then, church buildings were used for worship and Sunday Schools and church meetings and youth groups – all associated with the church. Today, as we know, they are also community meeting places  used for a variety of activities.

And what about morning teas? Nowhere to be seen back in those days!.

In my earlier churches, it was the evening service that was often the larger one. That’s changed tremendously. It probably had to do with Coronation Street on TV, as much as anything! These days children’s sport on Sundays has affected Sunday Schools and youth groups.

The existence of church choirs has changed. In the three congregations I served in there were strong choirs (even at the Hutt a 30 strong children’s choir as well as an adult one). And they sang every Sunday! But life is different now with different demands on people’s time.

And what of the Manse/parsonage? When Nola and I began we owned the clothes we wore and that was about it! Bedding, furnishings, crockery etc. etc all belonged to the church. Bit by bit over time that changed so that 40 years later we owned these things ourselves.

The Methodist profile has changed enormously, especially in terms of where Methodist churches are to be found. They don’t exist in the way they used to. We have two Methodist churches in the area comprised of Wellington City, the Wairarapa  and the Kapiti Coast up to Levin.  They are Wesley Taranaki Street and Pukerua Bay. Every other Methodist Church is now part of a  Union or Co-Operating Parish. That’s true of most of NZ. And that’s just changed enormously the way Methodism is perceived. We are now known mainly for our social service agencies. When I went as Superintendent to the Lower Hutt Parish in 1971, the largest Methodist Parish in the country at the time, we had 6 congregations and 4 full-time ministers. How times have changed!

And I think, too, the place of the minister in the community has changed over the years. So now, ministers are not quite seen in the same light as they used to be. I used to be quoted now and again  in the Westport paper (my first parish). I wouldn’t make a quote here in Wellington, would I?

One thing I do want to say is just how tremendously important lay people are in supporting ministry.  I have been supported by strong and committed lay men and women in each of my tasks. Without them my strength would have withered. Lay support is so important for creative and sustaining ministry.

Lynne,  those are the kinds of things I immediately identify when thinking about how churches have changed over these 65 years.

LD: So, Frank, you were heavily involved in the ecumenical movement, with Presbyterian, Anglican, and no doubt other churches, and not just with Union churches, but generally. Do you want to talk about that?

FH: Well, I would say that I was a “Methodist” from a very young age even though I was baptised in a Presbyterian Church (St Stephens, Lower Hutt), and didn’t know much about any other denomination.. But as I see my career, it has broadened out tremendously from a focus on one denomination to many. I have been privileged  to have had many inter-church opportunities.

One of the highlights of my career was flying from Nelson to Wellington, to attend the inauguration of the Plan for Union.  We were all on a high for that Union. And I flew over because I thought this was the right pathway for our future.  Unfortunately, it wasn’t quite to be.

I had lots of interactions with Presbyterians when I was in Christian Education. Lester Reid,     Jim Cunningham, Mervyn Aitken, Reg Weeks, Dennis Povey, as well as Ian Fraser and Norman Gilkison (when at the Hutt) and others. So that was a widening out.

Then going on to Trinity College, well, it was wide open. The Methodist College is situated on the Anglican St John’s site and we were working with the Anglicans 24/7. The main hall for worship and other gatherings is named Wesley Hall. Our lectures were mainly combined.

We Methodists taught Anglican students and Anglican lecturers (including two Presbyterians) taught Methodist students. Each College had Maori and Pasifika students too.

For 21 years I flew back and forth to Australia once or twice a year for ecumenical Committees. For eleven years I was part of the Joint Board of Christian Education, which produced Christian education curriculum material for Children’s, Youth, Family, Adult, Bible in Schools, etc. And then for ten years I attended the Board Meetings of the Melbourne College of Divinity. So, I’ve had rich experiences with people across many churches.

Strangely,  I don’t think I ever spoke to a Catholic priest until I went to Auckland. And this indicates the enormous change that’s happened over the years. Now such meetings are common. However  when I was at Trinity, our Methodist college was a member of a consortium of five theological colleges, two of which were Catholic (ACTE The Auckland Consortium for Theological Education.). So we worked hand in hand with them.

And, when it came to me doing some research and writing a thesis I had a Catholic nun as my supervisor. So there’s been really big changes since the 70s and 80s in church relationships.

Also while in Auckland the Consortium  managed to get a Bachelor of Theology Degree accepted by the University and taught by the Consortium. Now they teach up to Doctoral level.

LD: I really want to ask you how your personal faith has changed. I also want to ask you why you changed your values. But let’s deal with the faith question first.

FH: I think of myself as a reformer rather than a revolutionary; and I’ve seen that in terms of my personal faith development. I cannot identify any one time when all of a sudden the lights went on in my head and I went to a new way of thinking. It was a gradual process.

I had a basic traditional theology, what I’d call a Wesleyan theology, when I started off. And I think what I’ve done is I have grown away from it. Over years my faith has developed. I think, first of all, it was in my relationships with people. Senior ministers particularly, very clear thinking and insightful people. People like Wilf Ford, Selwyn Dawson, Jack Penman, and Anne Thomas who was my Supervisor for many years.

So there have been  many people who have influenced me personally. But also there were, of course, books. They too changed my thinking, bit by bit by bit.

Because when I started out, I had a fairly basic Christian faith. That was what I was taught in Sunday School and Bible Class. Fortunately, at 18 years of age, I went to a very important Lay Preacher’s Course on the Bible. And I was saved from becoming a fundamentalist. I was introduced to a critical view of the Bible, in which you could see the Bible not as the literal Word of God but as a book to be treasured, a book which could be described as containing God’s Word. And  also a book containing the spiritual struggles of people through the ages within the life of Israel and early Christian experience.

It’s been said that Methodists sing their faith. So we found our theology in the hymns of Charles Wesley. For instance in the Methodist National Anthem, And Can it Be, which we would sing with gusto. Listen to it:

“And can it be that I should gain

An interest in the Saviour’s blood?

Died He for me, who caused His pain?

For me, who Him to death pursued?

Amazing love! how can it be

That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me!”

That’s an Atonement theology which no longer speaks to me. I can no longer hold to it as the basis of my faith.  I’ve moved on from that over the decades to quite a different understanding of God and Jesus – and to what I mean by a living faith.

LD: And that’s what brought you to St. Andrew’s?

FH: What brought me to St. Andrews? It was not as if we had no other choices.

When I eventually gave up doing supply ministries we had to make a choice.  We could have gone back to a church in Lower Hutt. I’ve had a long association with Lower Hutt. I’ve lived there the majority of my life. It would have meant going back among friends.

But both Nola and I wanted a congregation with a progressive ethos. We wanted to go somewhere with that outlook on faith. That was why we came to St. Andrews.

It was the consistency of the messages, in the reflections, the prayers, the readings, the sermon and the music. And in the social action. We found here a consistent emphasis on progressive Christianity.

I could have gone to Wesley, Taranaki Street. Lynn Frith was there. She was a very progressive thinker. But I could never guarantee that when we went to another church we would see that progressive faith reflected in the hymns or the prayers or the sermon or in the wholeness of the service.

Here at St Andrew’s we found a wholeness about the theological structure which fitted where we were in our faith journeys. It was that more than anything else. But of course it’s developed into much more than just that through friendships and group activities.

It was that more than anything else.

LD: Well, I think we’re going to stop there, Frank. We could go on, but perhaps another day. You’ve given us a lot to think about, and we hope there will be future opportunities.

FH: Can I just say one more thing. I’ve been spending time over the last few months being interviewed by Anna [Smith], thinking about my life experience and faith journey, and that has been very good for me. I’ve now produced about six chapters of text – they’re in draft form at the moment. I’m not sure what I’ll do with them but maybe one day they’ll appear as a booklet.

LD: Well, perhaps you can express an encouraging  view to Frank afterwards to do just that. Thank you so much Frank.

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Audio of selected readings and reflections

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Audio of the complete service